Comments on: Atonement and the Church http://www.dissuaded.info/24/atonement-and-the-church/ Faith and Reason Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:30:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Theodore A. Jones http://www.dissuaded.info/24/atonement-and-the-church/#comment-12357 Theodore A. Jones Fri, 04 Jul 2008 18:26:01 +0000 http://www.dissuaded.info/24/atonement-and-the-church/#comment-12357 You are correct. The doctrine of substitutionary atonement and it's variants is in error. However your statement does not propose a valid resolution of anyway one might become one with God either. You can repent of being a sinner, sins, sin, giving your heart to Jesus, inviting Christ into your life, etc. etc. etc. and never achieve becoming one with God. For according to the set purpose of God that each man MUST give God a direct accounting regarding the sin of taking the life of your fellow man by bloodshed the crucifixion of Jesus is the sin of murder caused BY bloodshed. Gen 9:5b Therefore as Peter explains in Acts 2:36 God has made him BOTH Lord and Christ. For it is by his authority that the law of God has been changed Heb. 7:12, that ALL men have been given the responsibility to account directly to God but ONLY in regard to the sin of Jesus' crucifixion for salvation. NOT repenting of the sin of Jesus' crucifixion is a disobedience of the law. The issue of you raise of having to be guilty of crucifying Jesus is irrelevant. Reply : Dear Theodore, It is interesting to hear from you again after all this time! I think the deepest thing that I can say to you is to respond to your comment that, "You can repent of being a sinner, sins, sin, giving your heart to Jesus, inviting Christ into your life, etc. etc. etc. and never achieve becoming one with God." What you have done in making that statement is identical to what the church itself does and that is fail to take seriously the meaning of the words you speak. To repent is to turn from. So if I have truly repented from my sins I have ceased to be a sinner! I would have thought that to be obvious. What the church does is call a worldly sorrow repentance which it isn't. Similarly if you truly have given your heart to the Lord where is there any room for sin? You cannot serve both God and mammon! Surely it is the height of arrogance to say that I have given my life to the Lord but that I am not knowing Him or do not know how to achieve to become one with Him. The reason that people, you included it would seem, can say these kind of things and never mean them is because they do not say them with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength and thus take the Lord lightly. They do not fear or love or honour Him. I am not sure how confessing a sin that I did not commit can bring me any closer to the Lord. Do you feel that you have miraculously arrived at unity with God by such a confession? Or have you just arrived at one more theologically contrived confession to seek peace where there is no peace. The only place where we find peace with God is in the cross. We are to die to sin so that it no longer has power in us. Through entering into the Lord's death to sin we can live with Him free from sin so that we can live the remainder of our earthly lives no longer for the lusts of men , but for the will of God!(1 Pet 4: 1&2) If you have any further comment I will be only too happy to respond. In love Greg You are correct. The doctrine of substitutionary atonement and it’s variants is in error. However your statement does not propose a valid resolution of anyway one might become one with God either. You can repent of being a sinner, sins, sin, giving your heart to Jesus, inviting Christ into your life, etc. etc. etc. and never achieve becoming one with God.

For according to the set purpose of God that each man MUST give God a direct accounting regarding the sin of taking the life of your fellow man by bloodshed the crucifixion of Jesus is the sin of murder caused BY bloodshed. Gen 9:5b Therefore as Peter explains in Acts 2:36 God has made him BOTH Lord and Christ. For it is by his authority that the law of God has been changed Heb. 7:12, that ALL men have been given the responsibility to account directly to God but ONLY in regard to the sin of Jesus’ crucifixion for salvation. NOT repenting of the sin of Jesus’ crucifixion is a disobedience of the law. The issue of you raise of having to be guilty of crucifying Jesus is irrelevant.

Reply :

Dear Theodore,

It is interesting to hear from you again after all this time!
I think the deepest thing that I can say to you is to respond to your comment that, “You can repent of being a sinner, sins, sin, giving your heart to Jesus, inviting Christ into your life, etc. etc. etc. and never achieve becoming one with God.” What you have done in making that statement is identical to what the church itself does and that is fail to take seriously the meaning of the words you speak. To repent is to turn from. So if I have truly repented from my sins I have ceased to be a sinner! I would have thought that to be obvious. What the church does is call a worldly sorrow repentance which it isn’t. Similarly if you truly have given your heart to the Lord where is there any room for sin? You cannot serve both God and mammon! Surely it is the height of arrogance to say that I have given my life to the Lord but that I am not knowing Him or do not know how to achieve to become one with Him. The reason that people, you included it would seem, can say these kind of things and never mean them is because they do not say them with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength and thus take the Lord lightly. They do not fear or love or honour Him.

I am not sure how confessing a sin that I did not commit can bring me any closer to the Lord. Do you feel that you have miraculously arrived at unity with God by such a confession? Or have you just arrived at one more theologically contrived confession to seek peace where there is no peace. The only place where we find peace with God is in the cross. We are to die to sin so that it no longer has power in us. Through entering into the Lord’s death to sin we can live with Him free from sin so that we can live the remainder of our earthly lives no longer for the lusts of men , but for the will of God!(1 Pet 4: 1&2)

If you have any further comment I will be only too happy to respond.
In love
Greg

]]> By: Theodore A. Jones http://www.dissuaded.info/24/atonement-and-the-church/#comment-3271 Theodore A. Jones Fri, 04 May 2007 14:52:41 +0000 http://www.dissuaded.info/24/atonement-and-the-church/#comment-3271 FYI. The only sin that can be repented of to obey the Acts 2:38 command is the one sin of Jesus murder. The new covenant is that he became the sin for us to repent of in order to be forgiven of all sins and receive the promise to be made one with God. T. A. Jones I find it difficult to agree with the above comment. Peter in Acts 2:36, two verses before the verse mentioned above says, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified." In making this statement Peter though a Jew, and one whom in fear denied the Lord, does not include himself. So if Peter was not guilty of crucifying the Lord how can we, who were not even born at the time, be guilty of it. In other words I cannot repent of the murder of Christ. We can only repent of sin we have actually committed. Greg Mansell FYI. The only sin that can be repented of to obey the Acts 2:38 command is the one sin of Jesus murder. The new covenant is that he became the sin for us to repent of in order to be forgiven of all sins and receive the promise to be made one with God.
T. A. Jones

I find it difficult to agree with the above comment. Peter in Acts 2:36, two verses before the verse mentioned above says, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ – this Jesus whom you crucified.” In making this statement Peter though a Jew, and one whom in fear denied the Lord, does not include himself. So if Peter was not guilty of crucifying the Lord how can we, who were not even born at the time, be guilty of it. In other words I cannot repent of the murder of Christ. We can only repent of sin we have actually committed.
Greg Mansell

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